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Post by Tim on Jun 10, 2019 11:32:13 GMT -5
I think a lot of people base their opinions of Richard III on the Shakespeare play. The problem with that is that Shakespeare wrote this play a century later, when Richard's enemies, the Tudors, were still in power. Of course, Richard III is gonna be portrayed as the bad guy.
If you brought Richard into a modern court of law and charged him with the deaths of the two Princes, the case would be quickly thrown out of court. All the "evidence" against Richard is all hearsay, there were no actual witnesses to the supposed crime.
However, since the real Richard fought in the Battle Of Bosworth, the idea that he was humpbacked and had a withered arm is total rubbish. Shakespeare made those up in his play.
Of course, the question remains is that those bones that were found in the Tower the remains of the two Princes. They really should consider doing DNA tests on them.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Jun 10, 2019 13:54:06 GMT -5
Which hopefully, would tell us how they died obviously and perhaps who the real killer or killers were if it was not Richard actually.
Maybe one of Richard's followers perpetrated the crime to stop the Prince's claiming the throne from him though some people believe one of them was swapped with another boy looking like him who went in the tower then.
Of course, the most I know of Richard is through history, the play, and visiting Leicester Cathedral also.
The White Queen miniseries written by Phillipa Gregory depicted him being kind and gentle at first siding with his brother Edward and not his other one the Duke Of Clarence marrying Anne Neville for love and not material purposes then being slightly tyrannical at the end once he became king putting the boys in the tower not to harm but protect them rightly.
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Post by ladyfiaran22 on Jun 10, 2019 17:47:49 GMT -5
Thanks Tim for starting the thread. I first got into Richard after reading the Cousin's Wars books by Phillipa Gregory, especially The White Queen and the Kingmaker's Daughters and then watching The White Queen miniseries. I was intrigued that Richard wasn't portrayed as the evil hunchback of Shakespeare and started reading more about the Wars of the Roses, which led me joining the Ricardian Society. I do like a good historical mystery, and rooting for the underdog 😄
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Post by Tim on Jun 11, 2019 11:16:37 GMT -5
If you ask me, the most likely killer is the guy that took the crown from Richard, one Henry Tudor.
After all, the two Princes would have been between Henry and the crown, good motive for getting rid of them.
And the Tudors were still in power when Shakespeare wrote his play, so, of course, Richard is gonna be the bad guy. Otherwise, Shakespeare's career would have come to a premature, and nasty, end.
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Post by ladyfiaran22 on Jun 13, 2019 19:57:34 GMT -5
In the Cousin's War series, Queen Elizabeth Woodville puts a curse on whoever killed her son Edward V that their dynasty would end with only girls to inherit. And it turns out in the series Margaret Beaufort, Henry Tudor's mother, had them killed. It sounds plausible, she was obsessed with getting her son on the throne and she was very religious later on in a showy way which would make a good distraction. After all, if the king's mother is religious, then she isn't a suspect.
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Post by Tim on Jun 14, 2019 23:20:59 GMT -5
In the Cousin's War series, Queen Elizabeth Woodville puts a curse on whoever killed her son Edward V that their dynasty would end with only girls to inherit. And it turns out in the series Margaret Beaufort, Henry Tudor's mother, had them killed. It sounds plausible, she was obsessed with getting her son on the throne and she was very religious later on in a showy way which would make a good distraction. After all, if the king's mother is religious, then she isn't a suspect.
She's as mush a suspect as Henry Tudor is.
Too many people take the Shakespeare play as gospel as to what Richard III was really like. Truth it, if you brought him into a modern court of law and charged him with the murder of those two Princes, the case would be quickly thrown out due to lack of evidence. It's all hearsay.
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Post by ladyfiaran22 on Jun 23, 2019 11:09:08 GMT -5
To be fair to Margaret Beaufort, she had a very tough upbringing and a horrible marriage. Her father committed suicide when she was a baby after having been held hostage in France for a long time and then she was forced to marry Owen Tudor when she was twelve and then had Henry when she was thirteen, plus the complications from the birth meant she couldn't have any more kids. On top of that, her relatives were more concerned with the baby than if she died which I guess would make anyone nuts and why she was so devoted to her son.
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Post by Tim on Jun 23, 2019 11:52:12 GMT -5
We'll probably never know who was responsible for what happened to the Princes, or if it happened at all. There were no actual witnesses who said anything, and all the written accounts were taken down decades after the fact.
There is no smoking gun, nor will there ever likely to be one found that points to specific person.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Feb 25, 2022 8:34:23 GMT -5
I found this interesting podcast on YouTube about Richard III narrated by Dr David Starkey a famous English historian which I thought I'd share here and see what people think.
He's well known for his Monarchy, The Six Wives Of Henry VII, and Elizabeth I miniseries which people most know him for.
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Post by Tim on Feb 25, 2022 12:13:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the link.
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Feb 25, 2022 14:15:49 GMT -5
Your welcome. I hope you enjoy the podcast. I'm sure Vanessa would like this as well.
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Post by Tim on Feb 25, 2022 18:32:53 GMT -5
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Post by ladyfiaran22 on Feb 27, 2022 8:11:16 GMT -5
Great video, Katherine. Dr. Starkey is a brilliant historian and I enjoyed his book on Henry’s wives
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Feb 27, 2022 13:53:17 GMT -5
I'm glad you enjoyed his video, Vanessa. I've enjoyed his documentaries when they've aired on Channel 4 before.
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Post by Tim on Feb 27, 2022 19:26:07 GMT -5
I enjoyed it as well.
As I said, I've always felt that too many take the Shakespeare play as gospel on what Richard III was really like.
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