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Post by BettyNewbie on Dec 6, 2017 19:55:16 GMT -5
If they want to make a dark show about the scary world of a teenage witch, then they should just use original characters. That's the core issue with both Riverdale and this new Sabrina show, IMO. It feels like both were intended to be fully original stories with original characters, but ended up getting morphed into Archie Comics adaptations for the sake of name recognition. In this day and age of lower ratings and increased competition, networks are far less willing to take a gamble on an 100% original idea and would rather tap into a pre-existing fanbase. This is why we're seeing so many sequels/reboots/adaptations. |
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Post by Dark Avenger on Dec 6, 2017 20:23:54 GMT -5
That's right. And I found it so stupid how the storytelling made no sense. They were left in senior year of High School for nearly 4 years. And the timeline got so weird that an entire season would basically cover something that would be one month. Yep ABC Family kept renewing so the mysteries had to be dragged out so long. I hated the series final, and found it even more unrealistic that every couple were together in the end. What killed the show's timeline was the Season 5 renewal. They were originally planning on a 4 season run, with the first two seasons covering the Junior Year/Original A arc and the next two covering Senior Year/Big A. But, then, midway through Season 3, the show got renewed for Season 5, and that forced them to stretch out their plans to last through a full extra season. End result, the timeline slowed to a crawl, and Season 4/early Season 5 were 99% filler (a good chunk of which was provided by the failed Ravenswood spinoff). And, whatever wasn't killed by the Season 5 renewal was snuffed out by the Seasons 6 and 7 renewal. Since the show couldn't realistically keep the girls in high school for any longer than they already did, we wound up with the disaster known as the time jump.  Ditto to all of this. And all of this proves why if I ever attempted to re-watch the series I will stop at the end of Season 2. No need to watch anymore. If you ask me, Sabrina works more as a comedy. That is why this show is still fondly remembered. I couldn't agree more. I have trepidations about a dark Sabrina, I just don't think it'll work, but I'll reserve judgment for now. I will reserve my judgement until I see it. It might be actually pretty good, but It will take me time to get used to the series not being a comedy. And I really hope Salem being apart of this will add some humour to it, but with it being dark. I'm curious how a talking Cat will fit in it, If Salem the Cat starts swearing and saying crude things. That might put me off the show more. If they want to make a dark show about the scary world of a teenage witch, then they should just use original characters. In this day and age of lower ratings and increased competition, networks are far less willing to take a gamble on an 100% original idea and would rather tap into a pre-existing fanbase. This is why we're seeing so many sequels/reboots/adaptations. That's right, because an existing series or a reboot they figure the audience is already present to watch, rather than risk and hoping it will gain a new crowd for this new series. The last original series idea I saw was in the mid 2000's with shows like Lost, Desperate Housewives and Supernatural. Everything I have watched since the late 2000's onward has been similar something, a reboot, remake or based on a book or based on a comic. I can't remember too many truly original idea's on television in a long time. |
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Post by Tim on Dec 7, 2017 0:32:16 GMT -5
Yeah, they seem to be running out of original ideas.
Hey, if the actors are up for it, why not just continue the original Sabrina series, like they're doing with Will & Grace.
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Post by BettyNewbie on Dec 7, 2017 12:33:35 GMT -5
Ditto to all of this. And all of this proves why if I ever attempted to re-watch the series I will stop at the end of Season 2. No need to watch anymore. Same here. *nods* What I'd love to see is a post-S2 AU fic that has Seasons 3-4 play out closer to what they were originally supposed to (ie. no Ravenswood, no romance filler, S4 is the last season, Big A is a main character who had been there from the start, etc). Then, I could have a PLL with a solid 4 season run instead of just 2 great seasons and 5 mediocre-to-bad seasons. Really, this is a problem with too many of the shows I like. They succumbed to Seasonal Rot sometime after the second or third season and never really recovered.  I will reserve my judgement until I see it. It might be actually pretty good, but It will take me time to get used to the series not being a comedy. And I really hope Salem being apart of this will add some humour to it, but with it being dark. I'm curious how a talking Cat will fit in it, If Salem the Cat starts swearing and saying crude things. That might put me off the show more. It's possible that Salem gets excluded altogether, similar to how Robin is usually left out of darker/edgier Batman stories. I can't see them even trying to fit a talking cat into a dark Buffy/Supernatural-type show. The last original series idea I saw was in the mid 2000's with shows like Lost, Desperate Housewives and Supernatural. Everything I have watched since the late 2000's onward has been similar something, a reboot, remake or based on a book or based on a comic. I can't remember too many truly original idea's on television in a long time. When you think about it, Supernatural is pretty much the only genre show to spawn a new cult franchise since Buffy, and that show's 12 years old. We're not even seeing new cult hits on the level of Xena and Charmed anymore, let alone another Star Trek or Buffy -- a fresh, innovative show that comes out of nowhere, resonates with a ton of people, and grows into a massive hit franchise. The biggest genre shows nowadays are almost entirely DC/Marvel adaptations, already part of a big franchise. |
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Post by Jean on Dec 7, 2017 22:22:29 GMT -5
Yeah that's very true. Most of the other shows come and go, and don't have much impact years later. X Files, Xena and Buffy were the huge hits of the 90s. But most shows are based off books, movies or comic adoptions. I really want some new content.
It is why I'm not going to watch Black Lightning the newest hit from DC on CW. I can't keep up with all the DC shows, and feel like it has become too much for me.
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Post by Tim on Dec 8, 2017 0:31:39 GMT -5
Seems that they're running out of ideas in Hollywood.
Of course, it doesn't help that Netflix is cutting into the business. The fact that Netflix was able to woo the new Sabrina away from the CW sure proves that.
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Post by BettyNewbie on Dec 8, 2017 2:26:42 GMT -5
Yeah that's very true. Most of the other shows come and go, and don't have much impact years later. X Files, Xena and Buffy were the huge hits of the 90s. But most shows are based off books, movies or comic adoptions. I really want some new content. It is why I'm not going to watch Black Lightning the newest hit from DC on CW. I can't keep up with all the DC shows, and feel like it has become too much for me. This is likely where Rose McGowan was coming from when she harshly criticized superhero movies back in 2015. Comic books have become a go-to source material for Hollywood over the last 10-15 years. They're familiar, have a built-in fanbase, and carry loads of mass appeal. On top of that, DC and Marvel get a way to make money themselves, as increasingly fewer people buy actual comics. Nobody wants to take a gamble on original ideas anymore, because it's all about trying to stay afloat in the era of New Media. Comic book adaptations (as well as other reboots/remakes/spinoffs) are an easy way out of a sticky situation. |
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Post by Dark Avenger on Dec 8, 2017 4:12:56 GMT -5
Ditto to all of this. And all of this proves why if I ever attempted to re-watch the series I will stop at the end of Season 2. No need to watch anymore. Same here. *nods* What I'd love to see is a post-S2 AU fic that has Seasons 3-4 play out closer to what they were originally supposed to (ie. no Ravenswood, no romance filler, S4 is the last season, Big A is a main character who had been there from the start, etc). Then, I could have a PLL with a solid 4 season run instead of just 2 great seasons and 5 mediocre-to-bad seasons. Really, this is a problem with too many of the shows I like. They succumbed to Seasonal Rot sometime after the second or third season and never really recovered. I would so love to read those stories. I do remember in an interview that the writers had three names in mind at the start of S3 for the A who turned out to be Charlotte. I really don't believe them, I personally feel she was written as A at the last minute. She disappeared from the story for a year and suddenly out of the blue she turns out to be A. The show I admit was written perfectly in S1 and 2. But yeah we all know the rest was made up and filled with filler. So many good shows really do suffer after a few seasons. Maybe it is better a show only lasts for no more than 4 or 5 seasons tops. I will reserve my judgement until I see it. It might be actually pretty good, but It will take me time to get used to the series not being a comedy. And I really hope Salem being apart of this will add some humour to it, but with it being dark. I'm curious how a talking Cat will fit in it, If Salem the Cat starts swearing and saying crude things. That might put me off the show more. It's possible that Salem gets excluded altogether, similar to how Robin is usually left out of darker/edgier Batman stories. I can't see them even trying to fit a talking cat into a dark Buffy/Supernatural-type show. Yeah I could see them doing that and excluding him altogether, because it's either he is a Cat or doesn't appear at all. I don't see any way around it. I do know Aunt Wendy on Witches of East End was a shape-shifting Cat. But I don't see any logical reason Salem would have that ability, because he would be punished to be a Cat. So yeah it might be dropped. It is why I'm not going to watch Black Lightning the newest hit from DC on CW. I can't keep up with all the DC shows, and feel like it has become too much for me. I'm going to give Black Lightning the pass too for similar reasons. Seems that they're running out of ideas in Hollywood. Of course, it doesn't help that Netflix is cutting into the business. The fact that Netflix was able to woo the new Sabrina away from the CW sure proves that. Exactly right - what a terrible era we are in. I feel like the 90s and 00s were the last 10-15 years of quality shows and movies. I have so much fond memories growing up in those era's. I love television now and still watch shows. But I've gotten bored, and I feel a much more emotional connection with excitement on those era's of the past now. |
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Post by BettyNewbie on Dec 8, 2017 13:29:26 GMT -5
I would so love to read those stories. I do remember in an interview that the writers had three names in mind at the start of S3 for the A who turned out to be Charlotte. I really don't believe them, I personally feel she was written as A at the last minute. She disappeared from the story for a year and suddenly out of the blue she turns out to be A. The show I admit was written perfectly in S1 and 2. But yeah we all know the rest was made up and filled with filler. So many good shows really do suffer after a few seasons. Maybe it is better a show only lasts for no more than 4 or 5 seasons tops. Like many, I strongly suspect that we only got Charlotte (and that awkward transgender story) because her actor was the only one available, and the show didn't have the guts to make Alison or one of the love interests (particularly Ezra or Toby) the Big Bad. Loads of people thought Wren would turn out to be Charles, and here's a really good fic that shows how the 6A finale may have played out had the show gone that route. Exactly right - what a terrible era we are in. I feel like the 90s and 00s were the last 10-15 years of quality shows and movies. I have so much fond memories growing up in those era's. I love television now and still watch shows. But I've gotten bored, and I feel a much more emotional connection with excitement on those era's of the past now. I feel the same way, myself. I have little interest in the current crop of remakes, reboots, and comic adaptations. I miss the days when the networks were willing to take a gamble on fresh ideas and weren't all about exploiting nostalgia or appealing to a popular franchise. |
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Post by Tim on Dec 8, 2017 19:06:49 GMT -5
Part of the problem may be that the playing field has changed a great deal in the last thirty years.
In days of yore, when I was young, it was the three networks and nothing but. They could afford to take chances with original ideas because there wasn't so much competition around.
Now the playing field is a heck of a lot bigger. And you have to factor in the Internet as well. A lot of the more critically acclaimed shows can be found either on cable or the Internet.
Every year I follow the Emmy awards. It's interesting to see that a majority of the shows that win are cable shows. Thirty years ago, that would have been unthinkable, but now it seems to be the norm.
And then we have Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, and other Internet sites that are branching out into original programming. I don't know if the Emmys have been expanded to include online shows, but I'm sure that is going to happen before long.
And most creators or original shows are being wooed away to the Internet sites because said sites offer a great deal more creative freedom. Far less of, what TV Tropes called, Executive Meddling (this is what happened to Charmed, the WB meddled it to death). You can't blame show creators for thinking that the Internet offers better deals.
Hence the pickle that the mainstream networks now find themselves in. All the creative juices are going towards the Internet, leaving them with little original ideas.
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Post by Dark Avenger on Dec 8, 2017 19:37:33 GMT -5
I would so love to read those stories. I do remember in an interview that the writers had three names in mind at the start of S3 for the A who turned out to be Charlotte. I really don't believe them, I personally feel she was written as A at the last minute. She disappeared from the story for a year and suddenly out of the blue she turns out to be A. The show I admit was written perfectly in S1 and 2. But yeah we all know the rest was made up and filled with filler. So many good shows really do suffer after a few seasons. Maybe it is better a show only lasts for no more than 4 or 5 seasons tops. Like many, I strongly suspect that we only got Charlotte (and that awkward transgender story) because her actor was the only one available, and the show didn't have the guts to make Alison or one of the love interests (particularly Ezra or Toby) the Big Bad. Loads of people thought Wren would turn out to be Charles, and here's a really good fic that shows how the 6A finale may have played out had the show gone that route. Yeah you can so tell that they only did Charlotte because she was the only actress available to film. Because characters come and go from the story all the time, and it was so silly. What a great fic. I really wanted the Charles story with Wren. |
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Post by BettyNewbie on Dec 9, 2017 2:26:45 GMT -5
Yeah you can so tell that they only did Charlotte because she was the only actress available to film. Because characters come and go from the story all the time, and it was so silly. What a great fic. I really wanted the Charles story with Wren. It seems that the show had a hard time keeping the original supporting actors around, whether it was because they became too expensive or they moved on to other projects, so a lot of the original supporting characters (like Wren, Jenna, Melissa, and Lucas) vanished for no reason in the later seasons, and we instead got half-baked newbies like CeCe/Charlotte, Shana, and Sidney in prominent roles out of nowhere. That really hurt storylines in the later years. There were ountless times where fans were lead to believe that a suspect was either a major character or original supporting character only for them to turn out to be a minor, irrelevant character who didn't show up until Season 3 or 4.  BTW, we can continue our PLL discussion in this thread. Don't want this one to veer off-topic, too. Part of the problem may be that the playing field has changed a great deal in the last thirty years. In days of yore, when I was young, it was the three networks and nothing but. They could afford to take chances with original ideas because there wasn't so much competition around. Now the playing field is a heck of a lot bigger. And you have to factor in the Internet as well. A lot of the more critically acclaimed shows can be found either on cable or the Internet. Every year I follow the Emmy awards. It's interesting to see that a majority of the shows that win are cable shows. Thirty years ago, that would have been unthinkable, but now it seems to be the norm. And then we have Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, and other Internet sites that are branching out into original programming. I don't know if the Emmys have been expanded to include online shows, but I'm sure that is going to happen before long. And most creators or original shows are being wooed away to the Internet sites because said sites offer a great deal more creative freedom. Far less of, what TV Tropes called, Executive Meddling (this is what happened to Charmed, the WB meddled it to death). You can't blame show creators for thinking that the Internet offers better deals. Hence the pickle that the mainstream networks now find themselves in. All the creative juices are going towards the Internet, leaving them with little original ideas. All of this is very true. *nods* Furthermore, when it comes to DC/Marvel properties, in particular, there's another reason why those have been dominating both TV and film over the last few years: We’re seeing the worst falloff of Marvel and DC sales in the store’s 38-year history.
Both companies are losing established readers who no longer feel that the company’s output reflects the sort of comics they enjoy. Stories are lackluster, unfocused, and excessively long as companies think in terms of collected editions, not individual issuees. The tone is mostly dark and uninviting.
Deadpool and Harley Quinn are still very good sellers, showing that comics readers enjoy some funny in their “funny books”–but even those titles have softened a little bit because of character fatigue.
The DC books generating the most excitement right now are Superman: Lois & Clark, Swamp Thing, and Justice League of America–three books that most closely evoke the tone and attitude of classic pre-Flashpoint DC (and two of those are written by veteran creators who worked on those books in the pre-Flashpoint days). These books look great and are excellent, entertaining reads.
My Marvel readers are complaining about art this isn’t what they expect from a Marvel book. Cartoony art, manga-influenced art, quirky art… the concept of a house style is gone. The books that generate the most interest are books like Doctor Strange, All-New X-Men, Amazing Spider-Man, and (of course) Star Wars & Darth Vader–books that mix strong stories and great art.
For the first time in store history, yesterday’s Marvel FOCs saw us ordering single digits on more than half of the line items in the Marvel section. Now, to be fair, that includes collected editions and 2nd printings, which boosted that single-digit title count, but it still included an inordinate number of ongoing titles. As recently as five years ago, there were no Marvel Universe titles that sold in the single digits for us. Quirky concept books like Starbrand & Nightmask or Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur stumbled out of the gate for us.
The most disturbing trend involves established readers who have sufficient disposable income that they can afford to buy what they like to read. A significant portion of these readers are trimming their title lists by 50% or more because they don’t enjoy the current output. When a dedicated DC customer who was buying EVERY New 52 title in 2011 and 2012 is now buying no DC titles, or a dedicated Avengers/Captain America/Iron Man/Thor customer has dropped all of these series, it’s troubling.
We WANT Marvel and DC to succeed. We WANT to sell these books. We are NOT a preorder-only store–we order every title from Marvel and DC (as well as IDW, Image, Dark Horse, Dynamite, Boom, Valiant, Oni, AfterShock, and many other publishers) FOR THE SHELVES. But right now, the retailing challenge for many Marvel and DC is finding an eager audience for these new titles–and finding satisfying titles for established readers who enjoy classic DC and Marvel. People may love watching superheroes on TV or the big screen, but fewer and fewer care about them in their original medium. With the sales of actual comic books dropping off every year, DC/Marvel have no choice but to find other ways to make ends meet, such as licensing out their characters to be adapted into TV shows and movies. Notice that the first big surge of comic book adaptations happened in the 00s, not long after the great comics crash of the 90s (which the industry never fully recovered from). |
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Post by Dark Avenger on Dec 9, 2017 20:53:25 GMT -5
Yeah you can so tell that they only did Charlotte because she was the only actress available to film. Because characters come and go from the story all the time, and it was so silly. What a great fic. I really wanted the Charles story with Wren. It seems that the show had a hard time keeping the original supporting actors around, whether it was because they became too expensive or they moved on to other projects, so a lot of the original supporting characters (like Wren, Jenna, Melissa, and Lucas) vanished for no reason in the later seasons, and we instead got half-baked newbies like CeCe/Charlotte, Shana, and Sidney in prominent roles out of nowhere. That really hurt storylines in the later years. There were ountless times where fans were lead to believe that a suspect was either a major character or original supporting character only for them to turn out to be a minor, irrelevant character who didn't show up until Season 3 or 4. BTW, we can continue our PLL discussion in this thread. Don't want this one to veer off-topic, too. I get what you mean with going too much off-topic. Anyway you can move the replies over to that thread? Part of the problem may be that the playing field has changed a great deal in the last thirty years. In days of yore, when I was young, it was the three networks and nothing but. They could afford to take chances with original ideas because there wasn't so much competition around. Now the playing field is a heck of a lot bigger. And you have to factor in the Internet as well. A lot of the more critically acclaimed shows can be found either on cable or the Internet. Every year I follow the Emmy awards. It's interesting to see that a majority of the shows that win are cable shows. Thirty years ago, that would have been unthinkable, but now it seems to be the norm. And then we have Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, and other Internet sites that are branching out into original programming. I don't know if the Emmys have been expanded to include online shows, but I'm sure that is going to happen before long. And most creators or original shows are being wooed away to the Internet sites because said sites offer a great deal more creative freedom. Far less of, what TV Tropes called, Executive Meddling (this is what happened to Charmed, the WB meddled it to death). You can't blame show creators for thinking that the Internet offers better deals. Hence the pickle that the mainstream networks now find themselves in. All the creative juices are going towards the Internet, leaving them with little original ideas. All of this is very true. *nods* Furthermore, when it comes to DC/Marvel properties, in particular, there's another reason why those have been dominating both TV and film over the last few years: We’re seeing the worst falloff of Marvel and DC sales in the store’s 38-year history.
Both companies are losing established readers who no longer feel that the company’s output reflects the sort of comics they enjoy. Stories are lackluster, unfocused, and excessively long as companies think in terms of collected editions, not individual issuees. The tone is mostly dark and uninviting.
Deadpool and Harley Quinn are still very good sellers, showing that comics readers enjoy some funny in their “funny books”–but even those titles have softened a little bit because of character fatigue.
The DC books generating the most excitement right now are Superman: Lois & Clark, Swamp Thing, and Justice League of America–three books that most closely evoke the tone and attitude of classic pre-Flashpoint DC (and two of those are written by veteran creators who worked on those books in the pre-Flashpoint days). These books look great and are excellent, entertaining reads.
My Marvel readers are complaining about art this isn’t what they expect from a Marvel book. Cartoony art, manga-influenced art, quirky art… the concept of a house style is gone. The books that generate the most interest are books like Doctor Strange, All-New X-Men, Amazing Spider-Man, and (of course) Star Wars & Darth Vader–books that mix strong stories and great art.
For the first time in store history, yesterday’s Marvel FOCs saw us ordering single digits on more than half of the line items in the Marvel section. Now, to be fair, that includes collected editions and 2nd printings, which boosted that single-digit title count, but it still included an inordinate number of ongoing titles. As recently as five years ago, there were no Marvel Universe titles that sold in the single digits for us. Quirky concept books like Starbrand & Nightmask or Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur stumbled out of the gate for us.
The most disturbing trend involves established readers who have sufficient disposable income that they can afford to buy what they like to read. A significant portion of these readers are trimming their title lists by 50% or more because they don’t enjoy the current output. When a dedicated DC customer who was buying EVERY New 52 title in 2011 and 2012 is now buying no DC titles, or a dedicated Avengers/Captain America/Iron Man/Thor customer has dropped all of these series, it’s troubling.
We WANT Marvel and DC to succeed. We WANT to sell these books. We are NOT a preorder-only store–we order every title from Marvel and DC (as well as IDW, Image, Dark Horse, Dynamite, Boom, Valiant, Oni, AfterShock, and many other publishers) FOR THE SHELVES. But right now, the retailing challenge for many Marvel and DC is finding an eager audience for these new titles–and finding satisfying titles for established readers who enjoy classic DC and Marvel. People may love watching superheroes on TV or the big screen, but fewer and fewer care about them in their original medium. With the sales of actual comic books dropping off every year, DC/Marvel have no choice but to find other ways to make ends meet, such as licensing out their characters to be adapted into TV shows and movies. Notice that the first big surge of comic book adaptations happened in the 00s, not long after the great comics crash of the 90s (which the industry never fully recovered from). Very interesting take. And you'r right, things have changed so much in 30 years. |
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Post by BettyNewbie on Dec 10, 2017 1:22:40 GMT -5
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Post by Tim on Apr 9, 2018 23:23:13 GMT -5
I've been hearing these terms "Revival" and "Reboot" a lot lately. However, some people can't seem to tell the difference. When I hear about the "Rosanne reboot", I wince. Rosanne is NOT a reboot, it's a revival. Different thing.
If your show has the same characters, played by the same actors, and set in the same continuity, that's a revival. This applies to the X-Files, Will & Grace, Rosanne, Fuller House, and Gilmore Girls. Fans tuning in can clearly see that these are the same shows as they originally were. The cast is older, of course, but they are the same people.
However, if your show is starting over from scratch, and has new characters being played by new actors, and is set in a different continuity, that's a reboot. This applies to Hawaii Five-O, MacGyver, and the upcoming new Charmed and Sabrina shows. In some instances, the names of the characters are the same, but that's it. There is NO connection whatsoever to the previous shows.
I just wish they would get the terms right.
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I get now lighter work. 
