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Post by BettyNewbie on Feb 11, 2021 15:15:12 GMT -5
As horrible as Charisma's revelations are, what Michelle posted especially concerns me: I am brave enough now as a 35 year old woman....To repost this. Because. This must. Be known. As a teenager. With his not appropriate behavior....very. Not. Appropriate. So now. People know. What Joss. Did. She was only 14/15 when she joined the show and 17 when it ended. Whedon has looooong been known to have a fetish for vulnerable/waifish/childlike brunettes (Drusilla in Buffy/Angel, Fred in Angel, River in Firefly, Echo in Dollhouse), so the idea of him being inappropriate with a literal child probably isn't a huge stretch. Plus, we already know that she was being sexualized by older men on that set (James Marsters wrote a really creepy song about her).
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Post by Dark Avenger on Feb 11, 2021 16:51:03 GMT -5
I think there's some resentment on Sarah's part. I always had the feeling that something went down with them. Sarah always keeps her work life and private life separate. It's true why she did Buffy and kept out of social gatherings with cast and crew. This is what I've always suspected, myself. She's on record for hating Buffy's storylines in the later seasons, and she has consistently refused to play Buffy or work with Whedon again since then. I sometimes wonder if one reason the show almost ended with S5 was because SMG was ready to walk from the show and had to be goaded into doing two more seasons. The media at the time branded her as "difficult" (What else is new?), but it looks like Whedon was the "difficult" one. I remember that back in the day of 2001 at 13 vaguely. SMG didn't want Buffy to leave WB. But she was under contract. No wonder she didn't renew after 7. At this rate we're beyond to get a 90s doc into the toxic side of Hollywood with all thr corrupt producers of television at some point. I wonder if Alyson, Alexis and Amy will speak out as they were always Joss' favourites and seem to be in his friendship circle. This is something that should've always been a red flag with Whedon, IMO. He was known to play favorites with the actors he worked with (esp. the women), and that probably created a toxic work environment on his shows. Exactly. Pitting cast against cast. I truly think he never like Charisma well before S4. David Greenwalt was co-creator of Angel. Wasn't it his idea to bring Cordelia over. Cordelia suffered when he left after S3 of Angel. Much of Cordelia's big eps in S1-S3 of Buffy came from him I think. I find it interesting how Greenwalt left exactly when they or Joss pitched Cordy going evil in S4 before Charisma got pregnant. I hope Greenwalt comes forward. A few years ago lots of former Angel producers came forward to support Charisma's claims (now we have the full story beyond that) she didn't leave her pregnancy news until to tell the crew until the last minute. David Greenwalt seemed to adore Cordy more than Joss. I wonder had he never been part of Angel if Cordy would have died or been killed off long before. I haven't followed Joss in anything but Buffy and Angel. Never was that high on him outside of those shows. It was the stars behind Buffy and Angel that made the show. I'll always love those shows and won't let the pig ruin my enjoyment of them. I guess I'm one who can separate the two even if it's hard. Much like Charmed even with Kern and what we know. But hard to hear this about the shows you were fans of. Hollywood is just a terrible place. It has made me rethink idolsing people. You always get disappointed as we never know people outside of the persona they present. It now makes you think how horribly women in television have been treated for decades and decades labeled as divas, fired or labeled difficult to work with. Especially with how female characters are treated in so many of my favourite shows. Men like Whedon and Kernus are exactly why representation behind the scenes is just as important as representation in front of the camera. This is the kind of thing that tends to happen when you have men still holding the reins in the producers and writers chairs. Women will always be more effective at telling stories about themselves. Whedon also stands as a good example of why men (esp. straight/white/cis men) who openly call themselves "feminist" probably shouldn't be trusted. This isn't to say that men can't be good allies to women, but when they openly claim the label for themselves, they're usually looking for woke points or trying to cover up bad behavior. His thoughts on feminism are utterly tone-deaf, and many of his "strong female characters" have always come off as fetishistic. Oh man! This is crazy. But so proud of Charisma for coming forward. Nobody should suffer like that. I hate Hollywood and people in power being so corrupted and abusive. So many rumors for a long time about Joss and Charisma. I hate that it was truly that bad since I have heard rumours for years that it was worse than just firing her for being pregnant. I can't help now but think that the way Cordelia was repeatedly manipulated, abused, used, and ultimately discarded on Angel is now pretty much a metaphor for the way Joss treated Charisma in real life. No wonder season four sucked, it was basically Joss dumping all his real life toxicity into the story. Boo. Yeah. She got so much hate. Last year they trolled her because fans believed she was lying. As I said above. Crew and writers backed her up when she had to defend herself over a false article claiming she lied. This had been known and rumored for years. I'm so tired of finding out my favorite shows were helmed by complete monsters. I saw her statement yesterday before anyone else had said anything and straight away I knew it to be 100% true. There have been rumors for years about how Joss hated when she got pregnant, but this sounds like it started before then, and didn't just make Buffy a hard place to work but Angel as well. Its hard to believe that it has been kept mostly quiet for so long, with all the big stars that came from the show. The fact that Amber, Michelle and SMG back-up her claims is very damning, Joss should be finished after this, but in Hollywood....who knows? I'm not going to let him being a complete and utter @sshole ruin my enjoyment of the amazing shows he created, he's talented, its just unfortunate that whoever gets to decide who gets talent doesn't also get to decide if they're a decent person or not. You're over Joss, take your royalties and never show your face again. Yeah I think so. David Greenwalt was the Cordy supporter. I think Joss maybe never wanted her to join Angel. Notice Cordy's character went down hill after he left after S3. Same here. Buffy and Angel and his other shows are more than him in creating and bringing it to life. I won't let Joss ruin my love for Buffy and Angel. Same with Charmed but unlike Charmed, I did enjoy the characters a lot more overall than Charmed. Still prefer early Buffy seasons like Charmed. But Charmed crashed and burned much faster than Buffy. I just will never support anything new he does which won't happen. He's blacklisted from Hollywood the way Kernus was. I think a lot of people didn't want this to be true about Whedon, which is why so many dismissed Kai Cole's and Ray Fisher's earlier statements about his behavior. But, now that Charisma Carpenter has come out, with many of her former castmates backing her up, there's no denying it anymore. [/quote] Yeah. For years this has been known. But Whedon fans didn't want to believe it. Exactly. And this started to slowly come out for a few years with Charisma. When crew and writers backed her claims when fans taunted her over the false claims she told the crew last minute of her pregnancy. They all came forward to back her that she told them when it was first possible to share the news. Looks like Whedon is the next Kernus.
Does this mean that Buffy is tainted, like Classic Charmed is?
Appears so. But the way I look at it. Buffy like Charmed was a team effort from cast to crew to other writers and stunt team. The cast put blood, sweat and tears into it. The show was more than Whedon. As horrible as Charisma's revelations are, what Michelle posted especially concerns me: I am brave enough now as a 35 year old woman....To repost this. Because. This must. Be known. As a teenager. With his not appropriate behavior....very. Not. Appropriate. So now. People know. What Joss. Did. She was only 14/15 when she joined the show and 17 when it ended. Whedon has looooong been known to have a fetish for vulnerable/waifish/childlike brunettes (Drusilla in Buffy/Angel, Fred in Angel, River in Firefly, Echo in Dollhouse), so the idea of him being inappropriate with a literal child probably isn't a huge stretch. Plus, we already know that she was being sexualized by older men on that set (James Marsters wrote a really creepy song about her). Yeah I was reading that and didn't want to think the worst. I just wonder if SMG will come forward with more since she and Michelle were BFFs, she'd have been one to stand up to Joss to support her younger co-star. SMG is much like Shannen Doherty. But don't open up about what truly went down on the sets of their shows and distance themselves from the drama since wrapping them up.
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Post by BettyNewbie on Feb 11, 2021 17:22:03 GMT -5
Michelle updated her Instagram post... and this looks really bad. "He's not allowed in a room alone with Michelle again." At this point, it's hard not to assume the worst if she's saying something like that. I hope there's a criminal investigation. She was a child.
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Post by Squad 51 on Feb 11, 2021 17:31:45 GMT -5
Oh yeah, that's really bad then! If she was a teen, then Whedon has to face more than this. This is just a step but the investigation has to come now. He should be treated like any other man who did something like this. I feel disgusted!!
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Post by Tim on Feb 11, 2021 18:57:31 GMT -5
Shocking to know all that was gong on. I knew about Charisma being fired for getting pregnant (even Kernus never sunk that low, I mean he didn't fire Holly when she got pregnant). However, all this is just horrifying to hear about.
Michelle was just a teen back then. If this is true, Whedon is an out and out pedophile!
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Post by BettyNewbie on Feb 11, 2021 19:26:40 GMT -5
Might be a good time to remind everybody that Eliza Dushku was only 17 when she first appeared on the show dressed like this. Whedon already had a precedent for sexualizing underage actors on the show. (Unknown whether or not Eliza herself will say anything. She passed on the Faith spinoff to do Tru Calling, but she worked with Whedon again in Dollhouse. She's also had to deal with enough bullshit outside of Whedon, so she may not have the mental energy for this.)Oh yeah, that's really bad then! If she was a teen, then Whedon has to face more than this. This is just a step but the investigation has to come now. He should be treated like any other man who did something like this. I feel disgusted!! You and me both. If he really did to Michelle what I think she's implying, then he needs to have the whole book thrown at him. There's NO excuse for acting like that with a child (which is what a teenager legally still is).
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Post by Tim on Feb 12, 2021 0:56:10 GMT -5
Indeed he should have. Pedophilia is a crime, after all.
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Post by BettyNewbie on Feb 12, 2021 1:20:23 GMT -5
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Post by Squad 51 on Feb 12, 2021 10:43:09 GMT -5
Why does it surprise me not anymore of what had happened back in Hollywood? Though the shows in the 1990ies seemed to be more female, yet the men behind them were just machos and caught in old stereotypes.
Hollywood needs a lot to overcome.
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Post by Tim on Feb 12, 2021 12:10:06 GMT -5
I wonder how many Buffy fans will now feel that the show is tainted. Many Charmed fans felt that way when the truth about Kernus was revealed.
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Post by BettyNewbie on Feb 12, 2021 14:25:55 GMT -5
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Post by adzpower on Feb 12, 2021 15:30:27 GMT -5
So it does indeed look really bad now with what Michelle has said, BUT and this needs to be a distinction we make, we can't assume that any inappropriate behaviour towards her was sexual in nature until she actually clarifies it as such. There is a big difference between being a total tool, and being a pedophile, a sexual predator.
Joss deserves to be blacklisted after this, but being a douchebag and being a pedophile are not the same thing. So far to me at least it looks like she wasn't allowed to be alone with him because he might have been rude to her, and to a 15 year old girl that can be devastating, but that isn't the same as sexual abuse. I'd rather not go down that rabbithole until we need too.
Having said all that, I am not boycotting his work. Buffy, Angel, several comic runs and other bits of media that he has made, simply because when I thought about it logically, he isn't the only person involved in those things. Actors, other crew members, writers, directors, producers, artists etc, those people don't deserve to have their royalties slashed just becuase the man in charge was a dick. I'm starting to feel this way more and more as creators are revealed to be horrid.
An infamous example in recent times is JK Rowling, she's hateful, but what about her editors, publishing team and company? The actors and crew members who worked on the movie adaptions? Do they deserve to have their money slashed because of her? Nope. So I'm feeling this way about Joss' works as well, he's a horrid, abusive piece of scum and I hope he gets what he deserves, but not at the cost of the many thousands and thousands of people he has worked with who are good people who don't deserve to be punished for his crimes.
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Post by Dark Avenger on Feb 12, 2021 15:51:17 GMT -5
So it does indeed look really bad now with what Michelle has said, BUT and this needs to be a distinction we make, we can't assume that any inappropriate behaviour towards her was sexual in nature until she actually clarifies it as such. There is a big difference between being a total tool, and being a pedophile, a sexual predator. Joss deserves to be blacklisted after this, but being a douchebag and being a pedophile are not the same thing. So far to me at least it looks like she wasn't allowed to be alone with him because he might have been rude to her, and to a 15 year old girl that can be devastating, but that isn't the same as sexual abuse. I'd rather not go down that rabbithole until we need too. Having said all that, I am not boycotting his work. Buffy, Angel, several comic runs and other bits of media that he has made, simply because when I thought about it logically, he isn't the only person involved in those things. Actors, other crew members, writers, directors, producers, artists etc, those people don't deserve to have their royalties slashed just becuase the man in charge was a dick. I'm starting to feel this way more and more as creators are revealed to be horrid. An infamous example in recent times is JK Rowling, she's hateful, but what about her editors, publishing team and company? The actors and crew members who worked on the movie adaptions? Do they deserve to have their money slashed because of her? Nope. So I'm feeling this way about Joss' works as well, he's a horrid, abusive piece of scum and I hope he gets what he deserves, but not at the cost of the many thousands and thousands of people he has worked with who are good people who don't deserve to be punished for his crimes. I feel exactly the same as you. I won't boycott Buffy and Angel. I've come to just realize to separate art from the behind the scenes. The cast and crew worked blood, sweat and tears on the show. They don't deserve to be punished for it with royalties gone. The show was a team effort. It's more than Joss to make the shows and productions possible. If I go with the mindset and let the horrible shit behind the scenes affect mu viewing, I may as well sell my television and never watch television again. Seeing as Hollywood and the men behind the scenes arw so corrupt in so many of my shows. Blacklist Joss and make him go away like Kernus. Get lost d**k. I wonder if what Charisma has done so bravely will allow others to step forward with stories of being mistreated. Especially those in the late 90s working on the WB. I really wonder if this leads to the Charmed cast finally telling their truths about the set and Kernus/Spelling. I thought this because of how Holly is close with Charisma and Sarah and Shannen too. Those four woman have each gone through crap working for Kernus and Whedon.
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Post by Dark Avenger on Feb 12, 2021 16:02:14 GMT -5
Alyson and Alexis are godparents to Joss' son I believe. They may never make a statement. However we don't know if anybody privately reached out to Charisma via phone or such, (I hope they do soon), Which happened with J August who appears to have spoken to her before she posted her story and came forward. Michelle and SMG followed Charisma on IG now and vice versa. Neither had before. I think both likely wanted to reach out to Charisma personally to message more support privately. Otherwise I'd imagine Shannen being close with SMG maybe got Charisma's details off Holly for them to connect talk off social media. I wonder if David or other Angel cast members who haven't posted public messages of support reached out to Charisma pravetely?
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Post by Melinda Halliwell on Feb 12, 2021 16:17:32 GMT -5
I agree with adzpower and Dark Avenger it's best to separate Buffy and Angel from any behind the scenes drama and enjoy both shows and comics for whatever it is they should for people then. And yes don't have actors/actresses writers/producers work etc tainted just because they were associated with the show obviously.
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